I can’t remember the exact day when that proverbial light bulb went off about my 2nd serve and I had that “ah ha” moment.
It was awhile ago, but still to this day I have to remind myself that a 2nd serve requires as much if not more racket speed to insure safety.
Safety equates to solving your three main obstacles when serving.
1) Getting the ball over the net at a safe height
2) Getting the ball to land safely inside the service line
3) And doing those first two things above in a way that doesn’t give the returner an advantage.
We could always slowly push a flat serve safely over the top of the net, allow gravity to drop it down inside the service line, BUT that would put a huge grin on our opponent’s face as he/she unloads with their return of serve.
The ONLY solution is an upward rotating spin that we impart that solves all 3 of those problems.
And yes, you can bring in slow racket speed, impart that upward spin that will get the ball safely over the net, and then a combination of spin and gravity will drop the ball inside the service line, but a slow spin won’t solve problem #3 as our serve just sits there.
So, one of the big challenges we deal with is how do we swing quickly to bring in a lot of racket speed, and at the same time, not lose control of the serve where we double fault.
It’s called forearm roll or forearm turn.
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How about you? Are you concerned some times to swing too quickly on your 2nd serve?
Let me know below in the Comments area. Thanks in advance …
Brent
Brent’s Complete Serve Course
Ahh, this is what my long-suffering coach is trying to teach me at the moment; yes, when it I can do it, it really is effective. It’s good to have this on video so I can go over it and hopefully perfect it.
Thanks Brent.
Hi Kate.
Ask your coach to watch the video and maybe there’s something in there that will help the the two of you come up with a words or phrase that helps you continue to improve.
Brent
Yes, I’ll do that. The problem with me is that I say the right words whilst my body does something completely different, however, with practice, I get there…..eventually.
It appears that you aren’t going up and out but going right to left putting side spin on the serve. I’m talking about the contact point and after.
Hi Jeff.
Right, this is a very slow demo serve where I wanted to really focus on the forearm turn.
But you’re right, the racket shoulder should also be going up into the ball along with the foreram roll.
Brent
Hi Brent, I already have your mastering topspin course which is great (I still can’t hit a topspin serve consistently though – I think because I lack confidence to use it when it matters). So I was interested to see this video – similar thoughts re racket speed as in the topspin course. A question: do you rotate the forearm in the direction show on the video for a slice serve? It would seem to me that there is less rotation/pronation on a slice than on either a topspin or a flat serve. Thanks, Brent, really enjoy your approach to the game.
Hey Marc.
There is less rotation on a slice and it happens a little later as well.
Go back and look at that slice serve portion of the lesson and I think you’ll see that the “roll” happens just after contact.
Brent
Hi Brent,
if you think about the forearm roll the impression would be that you snap the ball flat with it. But you have to brush the boll upwards, yes? From 7 o´clock to 2 o´clock? Its difficult to understand that the forearm roll could result in topspin…Can you explain somewhat more please?
Kind regards,
Sigurd
You’re right Sigurd, it’s the one of the most difficult things to articulate for everyone.
Some folks get it, and others don’t, so pronation on the serve has to be explained in several different ways to try and convey how it works to as many players as possible.
You’re right, the swing path gets “rolled” from 7 to 2.
Remember, the finish of the forearm turn isn’t the thing to focus on, it’s where on the ball and what swing direction the initial contact is made.
In an instant the ball is released off of the string bed at contact, so think more of that precise contact point with racket and ball and not so much where the racket finishes.
Blah, blah, blah. I just re-read my comment and it doesn’t even make sense to me …
Brent
lol. It’s 5 o’clock somewhere!
Hmm. So you’re saying Rick, a little adult beverage just might loosen up that forearm roll?
Brent
Awesome video to explain pronation. It works. Thanks.
That’s great Dennis.
Always a mystery to me why an explanation can be very clear to some and very unclear to others.
Gotta keep workin Brent.
Brent
Hey Brent, remember, you are often dealing with club players who haven’t done their own research, so they can’t grasp your instructions. I think in this case, you should mention that ALL serves involve pronation and a loose wrist/grip… otherwise ‘unstudied’ hackers will get confused.
No question that all serve involve pronation (forearm turn), and a relaxed grip tension, however, the timing of when those things happens differ for each of the serves.
Brent
Agreed; and forearm roll is a good description for pronation. Your buddy Jim M uses that one.
I think throwing out the word pronation is a good idea – it’s a word that means nothing unless you look up the definition, and then it still doesn’t translate.
I agree RS.
So folks — what’s our new word for pronation?
I like forearm roll or forearm turn, but since I’m clearly not being the sharpest tool in the shed, I want to hear your thoughts on this.
What word or phrase do you like that explains serve pronation?
Brent
Don’t separate the second-serve concept from first serves re pronation
It’s all pronation
Explain pronation as the body’s natural way to throw a ball overhand, and that you should not ‘think’ about pronation per se. Being loose and relaxed will allow the body to do that naturally
While watching this vid, I immediately thought why doesn’t he just say ‘the pronation completes a bit later than during a first, flat serve because you want to brush the ball more on second serves’
The overall approach to teaching tennis should revolve around the wisdom of the body.. letting go of the ‘controlling mind’
Maybe explain it by ‘deconstruction’
“If the racquet comes up ‘on edge’ (like a karate chop) you have to turn it forward so the strings will contact the ball. If you don’t have your racquet on edge as you come up to the ball, then you are a hacker and you are in big trouble haha”
The quickest, easiest (and definitely forehead-slapping) way to understand ‘pronation’ is to let your body show you:
1 Stand up, a little sideways, without a racquet
2 Make a really loose-limbed throwing motion; as if you were throwing a ball
3 Don’t ‘try’ to roll (pronate} your hand/forearm; just relax totally, as if you don’t care if your arm comes off at the shoulder and flies across the room
4 Now, do that a few times, noticing the direction the palm of your hand faces at the end
5 If you are totally relaxed, your palm will be facing directly to the right, perpendicular to the ground (left for lefties).
This is what the body does naturally. Why? Because the body is protecting itself. The arm has to decelerate, and pronation is the natural way to take that task away from the shoulder and arm, and involve the much larger, stronger back muscles.
IMHO the above disproves that dusty old ‘before-high-speed-film’ theory about ‘wrist snap’
I stand corrected …
Brent
My comment wasn’t aimed at you Brent, it was for RS
It’s hard to visualize that a person can put sidespin on the ball, and still have a forearm roll. It just seems like the two motions contradict each other.
Here’s a question for you Brent that might help me….
On your 3 different serves (slice, topspin, and flat), if you were to release (actually throw) your racket at the exact instant that you would have made contact with the ball, where would your racket land and what path would it have taken to get there? (For example, on the kick serve – would your thrown racket go flying through the air in a high-arching path and land near the net on the court next-door on your right?)
See my reply about the complete pronation being slightly delayed (as compared to a flat serve), as you want to strike the ball with a bit of an angled racquet. Key is not forcing the pronation… just decide what spin and then throw the racquet head at the ball; you’ll naturally aim the strings at the right angle.. pronation will happen. You can google that.
Good question Rick.
For a righty …
Topspin = up (some forward) and out to the right
Flat = same as the topspin but with a lower up trajectory (still out to your right)
Slice = some up and more of a forward direction (not so much to the right)
Very weak reply to your question, but hopefully it’s a start.
Brent
Brent, I recently had a virus that coused alot of lost information. Unfortunately I also was not able
to recover the lessons that I initially subscibed for and paid $97.00 dollars for. I had only viewed the
lesson twice. Please resend that initial lesson to me.
Hopefully you will honor my request.
Thankfully yours,
Werner/.
Hi Werner. No problem.
Send me a quick email just so I know I’ve got the correct email address.
Thanks.
Brent
I’m going out and trying it today—got a doubles game in 30 minutes!
It’s what my tennis instructors have been telling me about for at least a couple of years—but you have explained WHY—and that can help me self-correct when I serve a fault (or double fault!)
Thanks, Brent.
Newt
Go for it Newt!
Give us some feedback after your match.
Brent
Good explanation Brent. Your term of forearm roll and where to hit the ball for topspin serve is more helpful than the ‘brush up’ tip most pros teach. Another way to insure good ‘pronation’ is at end of the serve, your thumb should be pointing down, true? Also, your elbow leads your hand in making contact. For many club players the hand and elbow strike the ball at the same time, negating some of the whip and speed, right?
Hi Mike.
Yes to all of those things you mentioned.
Brent
Brent, great job on explaining pronation using terms like forearm roll etc. Please don’t forget to to tell “pros” to stop instructing students to snap down on the ball. I can’t tell you how much time I have spent trying to explain that myth to students.
Hi Bob.
One of the areas of my teaching that I’ve spent a lot of time on the past few years is to simplify.
Somehow simplify but still make it fun, interesting, and motivating to practice.
Brent
Hi Brent,
Excellent video, it kind of continues your webcast with Jim.
For me the most fundamental thing was the “set-up” position you showed here – it’s a key
thing which I will engrave in my mind. I had a problem with it watching videos on other sites that pretended
to be the “best”. Now it’s perfectly clear. Thank you.
Old school is the best school!
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Chavdar
Hello Chavdar.
Love it… “Old school is the best school.”
I do believe that there is a combining of old school with the modern technology that works well.
And you’re right, the ‘set up’ position of the serve is everything.
Brent
Thanks, Brent. I am going to try this. It does look difficult, but i will go slow at first.
Hi Joe.
Start tinkering with it slowly as you suggested.
When it’s slow, you have a much better chance of actually feeling how the movement works.
Brent
Thanks Brett for this lesson and all the others you have shared..Have a merry christmas
You’re welcome Patrick.
Happy Holidays to you and yours as well.
Brent
Hi Brent,
Great lesson on the second serve as I have a tendency to decrease the racket speed (or holding it back a little) instead of increasing it by fearing of hitting the ball out of the service box. I now always remind myself to have more speed and more spin when I am getting ready to serve my second and ignore the small scary voice telling me that I might screw up. Thanks for the helpful tip.
By the way, I was trying to figure out what kind of racket you are playing with, it look like a “Babbolat”.
I am looking for a new racket as pretty as yours with good power and control. Any recommendation?
I realize it also has to do with the kind of string and the tension, etc.
Thank you very much. You are the best coach I have ever had so far and worth every penny I invest in your course. Keep up the good work.
Hi Kiat.
Right. Our instincts can tell us to slow down the racket on our 2nd serve, but you’re right, then we just get a very slow spin which isn’t going to help.
For now, give yourself permission to miss a few 2nd serves as you develop the feeling for bringing in more racket speed to create that spin you want.
I’m playing with the original Babolat PureDrive (non Cortex) 110. Yes, I know, I know, I gotta eventually find something new because I’m down to my last couple of rackets.
Maybe that should be my 2012 resolution – find some sticks!
Brent
I have learned the short quick tips that you give help me the most because I can concentrate
on 1 single instruction during a practice sestion before a match.
these quick tips have helped to improve my serve.I won in doubles today and my opponents
credited my serve improvement was the reason
Brent, thank you for your help
Hi Jerold.
That’s such cool news about getting feedback directly from your opponents about your improved serve.
I believe that players who are serious about making improvements to their game have to do so with small steps.
That can get a little boring and tedious at times, but honestly, I don’t know of any long lasting quick fixes.
Congrats Jerold. Keep workin …
Brent
Hi Brent,
I’ll have to experiment with this and see if I can add it to my present 2nd serve. You can never have too many weapons
Gib
You’re right Gib about never having too many weapons.
However, for me, I’ve found that if I stick to the fundamentals, in fact, work more on eliminating anything that’s artificial in my strokes, I tend to be more confident when I play matches.
Brent
Are you making contact on the back of the ball or the side? Also it appears on the video that you are hitting the ball on the right side of the racquet not the middle of the racquet.
Hi Doreen.
2nd serve swing path goes from about 7:00 to 2:00 on the back of the ball.
Hopefully, the initial contact is in the middle of the racket
Brent
I am really impressed with how loose your grip is! Your “trigger” finger never seems to touch the racquet, and your pinky is raised also. I am equally impressed with how you can keep the racquet from flying across the court, and how polished and polite you are. Seriously, though, I’m sure the loose grip helps a lot.
Hi Terry.
Polite and polished …? Wow. Thanks Terry. I look at my videos and think, “dude, you gotta take some public speaking classes”.
Appreciate your kind words.
No question that the grip tension has to be relaxed to allow the forearm to turn without injuring it.
You could probably roll the forearm with a tight grip, but that might be the last time you played for awhile.
Tinker with a grip tension that feels too loose for now but not so loose that the racket is thrown.
Brent
Consistency, then accuracy, then power. Sometimes I have to go backwards to go forwards.
The beginnings for all strokes are so critical. Serve: toss, setup. Groundstroke: split step, unit turn, spacing. Volley: relax, let the ball come into my body frame, spacing. Return of serve: split step and come down with toe pointed in the direction of the ball and having completed the unit turn, spacing.
Enjoyed hitting two baskets of balls yesterday, one in the morning, one in the evening, using your first drill.
When apply body leverage, whether on serves, groundstrokes, return of serves – I am finding it really important to look for ways to shorten the stroke. The beginnings seem to be the critical key.
Am enjoying the value of accuracy now – magical to be able to reliably switch from wide to center to T. Time to encourage my netman to make the service call so they can improve their poaching.
You’re right there Rodger.
Just love the way you stay so focused and so organized with your practice schedule.
Can’t wait to see how your gane improves in 2012.
Brent
I have no idea what 2012 will bring – another year older for one.
Change/improvement can be very destructive to one’s game. Fortunately, after it falls apart, it (usually) comes back together even better.
I will be signing up for 3.5 and 4.0 flex league singles this year and this summer some 3.5 tournaments – hopefully that will give me enough time to consolidate all my changes. None of my friends can imagine playing 4.0 singles.
Armando, the top player at A courts and a good friend has been gone for awhile and finally showed up again yesterday. I was happy to find out that he uses a leveraged forehand, among his stroke choices – I can see it now that I know what to look for.
My weight is holding at 196, so now it is time to go for the 180′s = another 10 pounds. I think that the spacing/footwork requires constant movement so the total body weight, tennis exercises, and spacing drills are more important than ever.
I have designed a spacing drill for ball machine volley practice = moving in a figure 8 pattern, right to left. I think I will start counting my steps with a minimum goal of 8 steps between strokes throughout my practices and matches = halfway between the stats on pros vs club players. Will probably hurt my focus, but I think it’s a must do. No amount of repeatable stroke practice helps without the correct spacing to the ball.
I have come to believe that movement, spacing, footwork is the real key going forward now so that I’m focused on attempting to get into the most optimum position to execute the strokes so I don’t have to adjust the stroke for poor positioning.
Whenever someone misses a shot and they complain to me, if I suggest footwork as a root cause, they give me a blank look.
Hi Brent,
I have been following your series on serving and it has been awesome. I think that serving is the hardest part of tennis to teach and you have been spot on with all your instructions.
I have been playing regularly with somebody and have been trying to coach him into playing better. When we got to the serve part, I have been having difficulty in explaining how to do the server properly. His serves go in consistently but they are almost always soft and short. Its hard to get him to do it differently since he’s already comfortable with his stroke. With these videos, it is so much easier to show him where to improve.
Hi Rafael.
Glad the videos are a good reference for you and your friend.
Stick to the basic fundamentals.
Nothing artificial, no flair, just simplify and his serve will get better over time.
Brent
Brent,
For the past several weeks I’ve been experimenting with an agressive forearm roll on both my 1st and 2nd serves. I’ve noticed two things. First, I’m getting atleast 10% more of my serves in play. Secondly, there’s been a noticeable increase in the number of my serves not being returned in play, even though my opponent gets his racquet on the ball. This has surprised me. My next experiment is to see if I can get my shoulder involved in the roll. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Hi Dave.
The forearm roll creates a “heavy” ball.
To me, a heavy ball is a shot that comes in with power from what looks like a very short pre-contact swing.
The forearm roll doesn’t need a big swing, just a commitment to turn it at the very last second.
The result is a shot swing serve with power.
Shoulder? Make sure your racket shoulder is being moved up into the ball and then allow the forearm roll to happen just prior to contact.
And by up I mean literally that it’s being pushed up towards the ball and not allowed to swivel from side to side.
Brent
Brent, It looks like you try and make contact with the ball, as far to the outside edge of your racket as possible. I assume that with the forearm roll, you then get more of a glance or brushing of the edge of the ball kind of result.
Please explain the direction of the spin that you are creating. From the video it looks like you are coming across the ball from the 3 o’clock position to the 9 o’clock position. IIs that correct? Thanks