Ok, this “Answer” video really got me seeing so many things that all of us can work on.
When you’re part of return of serve team, and especially when you or your partner is returning a 2nd serve, we’ve got to take way more advantage of that situation than we do now and turn it into a big time opportunity.
Get out pen and paper …
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Still think Bill might have reacted sooner to cover behind Paul, even without a signal. In this case, Brian didn’t just “block” that volley back, he actually put a little bit of “hit” on it, so Bill still might not have been able to cover that ball. I think I’ve mentioned that I want Brian as a partner.
My problem with the practice drill is that it assumes that we have opponents who will come in behind their second serves. Those types who are confident enough in their net games and who are inclined to “hustle” enough to do it are much more fun to play against, but rare in my experience. Maybe it’s different out yonder on those dern hard courts. . .
Looking forward to my first year in the 60′s. *Dang* that sounds old!
The shoulder surgery was apparently successful – and minor enough – that I should be back out there quite soon.
Morning KB.
You could be right about Bill being able to cover since he’s played a lot with Paul and I’m sure knows Paul’s tendencies.
And right, this drill is set up for when the server comes in behind their 2nd serve.
You cannot tell me it’s rare when you play against a team where the servers rarely come in behind their 2nd serve.
No ???
Brent
Brent, another good video. The only part i question is the starting point inside the service box: i still think you have the obligation to call the service line + but, if you have faith in your returning partner’s ability to get the return past the opposing net man, you can still move forward and call that line.
PS in January, i am the “young guy” in the 70s!
Morning George.
You don’t have an obligation to call the service line.
Especially on a 2nd serve that is in theory slower than the 1st, and realistically, you don’t have to be exactly on the service line to make the call if the serve is a hair out.
Nice going there youngen! Go get em in the 70s …
Brent
It would appear that he has. . .
http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=128427
Brent, no need to apologise for being long when there is so much great content
Thanks!
Thanks Bill.
Wasn’t really an apology as much as a warning.
I’ve conditioned the WebTennis folks to expect shorter, under 5 minute videos because that’s what’s been asked for, but I just couldn’t help myself this time
Glad you liked it …
Brent
Great point about Paul’s starting position. Was Paul aiming low at Brian’s feet and he just missed his target? The shot at the feet would have produced a weak reply (if at all) that Bill or Paul could put away. The shot down the middle, if not kept low, could also have produced a comfortable backhand inside-out volley for Brian. Perhaps the point is that, regardless of target, the shot must be low.
Hey Peter.
Absolutely, regardless of target as you say, the volley must land low as insurance if the opponent can make a play on it.
I believe that Paul got off enough stretched out and off balance to where he wasn’t able to control the exact placement.
My point is that we need to practice targets that go against our instinct of playing shots directly at an opponent.
Brent
Great video, Brent. I have a few questions:
1. Let’s say Paul had signaled a “stay.” Based on his partners return to the opponents feet, to me the established plan was now optional and Paul is free to freelance and poach a weak return, which in this case was what he got (execution notwithstanding). Is that a fair analysis? and
2. Is it understood between the receiving team that anytime your partner is executing an unplanned poach that your immediate job upon seeing it is to start moving to cover the open court? and
3. If the answer is yes to #2, then the poacher, come hell or high water, must never fake an unsignaled poach and must always follow through with their poach even if they see that they’ve terribly miscalculated.
I play in a group and seldom have the same partner so having a few basic rules to live by would seem to make sense for us. Are the above good basics or should I consider some alternatives?
Thanks!
Looks like Brent is going to sleep the day away.
My take is that a poach is a calculated risk. You know that it’s sometimes going to lead to some spectacular failures. The mindset is that, even with those failures, the net, long term average result is that yer team comes out better by having done it.
Brent talks about how it gets into the opponents’ heads. I know it sure gets into mine when an athletic sort is up there juking around and sometimes going and other times faking. Throw in a server who mixes it up and it’s enough to make a guy learn to lob.
It also seems to me that some judgment is required as to whether and when to cross behind yer (apparently) poaching partner. In this particular instance, even *after* Paul is clearly taking the ball, Bill seems to be making the assumption that Paul is going to put the ball away. Against lesser opposition, he likely is correct. At higher level tennis it can be a major mistake to *ever* assume that there’s no chance the ball will be coming back.
Easy there Mr. East Coast
Good point KB on Bill assuming that Paul is going to hit a winner.
We all do this a lot where we assume either we or our partner is going to end the point and we don’t prepare for the ball coming back.
Brent
Morning Chris.
1. If there had been a fake poach (not a stay) signal, then the fake poach is on no matter how good the return is.
Bill has to know that he can play the return and close.
2. Right, if I see my partner is freelancing a poach, I’m OK with that, and yes, my job is to to cover behind.
3. I disagree. I want my partner to always either fake or fake early and then go. If the server guesses right from time to time, I’m OK with that.
Poaching isn’t an exact science that produces winning points each and every time you either poach or fake poach.
However, even when you lose that occasional point when the opponent guesses right and/or the volley is missed, you still put another layer of pressure into that opponent’s mind for the upcoming points.
It’s a residual benefit …
Brent
Brent, I have read Pat Blaskower’s doubles book. Do you agree with all she has to say on the art of doubles?. One point of confusion I had is that when my partner, and I are up at net, and the opposing team is in the one up one back formation ,and the back court player is pushed out wide. Pat states that the net player cross court of the ball should move wide to cover all possible angles, and the player that is in front of the ball should move towards the ally. I was always taught to move in the direction of the ball. I feel the cross court player should shift in the same direction as his partner and move more towards the middle of the court ,and give the opponent the tough angle shot. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.
One of the things I try to get across to my students is that when you make that aggressive poach if the shot isn’t there because it gets too low or you get off balance is to adapt your shot. Had the ball been up and he was more balanced for an aggressive shot the body ball might have worked but here with the lack of communication a middle ball or well off to Brians right would have been a better option. One of the other things I try to get across is that when both players jump on a middle ball and almost collide any ball that isn’t well stuck that doesn’t stay down the middle is trouble which is almost what happened here.
Hey Mike.
Still, we tend to hit directly at an opponent when an open space target produces more winning points.
My main point in this video is to work on changing our instincts from playing shots at opponents to playing shots to open spaces …
Brent
Hey Rich just my two cents but I agree with Pat Blaskower. The movement in the back of the court is different than up at net. At net move with the ball in the back just the opposite
Mike if you read my post carefully I’m saying that the net players should move with the ball and I’m acutely aware that on the baseline you stand a little opposite of the ball to bisect the angle. Pat espouses that the net player goes wide as the baseline player is pushed out wide and that’s what I was disagreeing with.
Rich.
My initial response to your first comment ended up below here.
Check it out and then let me know if that helps clarify anything for you.
Brent
sorry rich I miss read that. I do think you are right. I like Brent feelings about that player that he needs to be aware of helping cover his partner on his back side allowing him to be more aggressive and there is more room over your head so I move over but not as close to the net as my down the line partner.
Morning Rich.
I don’t agree with 100% of what Pat teaches, but I’ll bet it’s close to 95%.
And the 5% I don’t agree with isn’t major stuff. I know Pat would say that’s cool, go with it either way.
Right, when we’re up at net and we pull an opponent out wide from their baseline, if I’m the net player where the ball is in front of me (not cross court from me), then I gotta cover the alley for sure, but I’ll invite that opponent to go for an up the line shot.
I’ll show them the alley is open and then quickly cover it just as they are about to play their shot.
If the invite works, then I’ve got a big wide open court to hit my volley into. My job is to be aggressive in trying to attract the ball to me.
That could mean showing an early fake poach where the opponent thinks I’ll eventually cover my alley, but instead I’ll show the fake and then look for their cross court shot I can pick off.
Now, If I’m the cross court net player, I’ve got a lot of court to cover. I know my partner has to cover their alley, so I’ve got responsibility for any deep lob, any sharp angle cross court, and anything played up the middle.
So, I’m less agressive with my court position. I’ll do my best to back up my partner who I know is over there trying to show movement and attract the ball.
Like Pat, I don’t like the old 10′ rule when we keep a 10′ tether between partners. There are a couple of major flaws in that strategy.
So, yes, you have to move somewhat to the middle, but you’ve got a lot of court to cover that includes that wide sharply angled shot from your opponent.
Guess it’s time to hit the gym
Brent
Brent, thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree with everything you say. I love how Pat teaches the terminator and cross court player concept, and I’m all for the cross court player standing a little further back to cover a possible lob. I agree the 10 inch rule doesn’t always have to apply. I just had issue with how wide she had the cross court net player positioned in her illustrations. You seem to agree with me that the player shouldn’t be that wide, and move a little to the middle. All top doubles players advocate controlling the middle of the court so you don’t want to leave to big a gap down the middle. Hope you have a good workout in the gym today. Rich
Good feedback Rich.
I meant it was time for ALL of us to hit the gym if we’re going to have to cover so much court when we’re the cross court player
I believe Pat wants you to be alert and really looking for that possible cross court shot from your opponent, but the reality is that shot is pretty tough to play consistently to where it’s going to hurt you.
I’d rather look for the possibility of a drive to the middle or that deep lob over my partner.
Doesn’t mean I’m totally giving up on the chance of a sharply angled cross court, it’s just not my top priority.
Brent
Hi Brent: I loved your analysis!
Regarding a 75-25 distribution of down the middle vs into the alley, if that is what you meant in your drill.
The volley into the alley is not that difficult because in this case the ball does not have to be redirected. The angle of incidence and the angle of rebound are almost the same. A flat board could make the shot (well, almost!)
But if you play in a group that knows your tendencies, a 45/45/10 distribution gives the opponents more mental strain. I had to quit hitting so many balls into the alley because it became predictable. The 10% is the surprise factor like a lob, (or in my case a mis-hit)
Cheers
Warren
Brent I agree that cc angle is the toughest to make happen
Hi Mike and Warren.
If in doubt, play your shots into the middle, because if it comes back, you want balls coming out of their middle, not from out wide where you have more court to cover.
Brent
Brent,
I’m having a hard time running the videos on my PC; in the meantime, I don’t seem to have a problem on my smart phone. Any ideas as to what may be the issue on my notebook? The Youtube link is there, but when I click on it . . . nothing!
Thanks,
Michael
Not sure Michael.
So, when you try to click through the YouTube link to get over to my WebTennis YouTube channel, you get nothing?
Brent
Was going through some of your archives this morning Brent. Still good stuff:
The Short Forehand – How To Stop Making Unforced Errors
January 13, 2010
Morning RS.
Right, that’s a situation that constantly gets abused by thinking “winner”.
It’s just another approach shot.
If it doesn’t come back, then you’ve hot a winner …
Brent
Have barely gotten into your doubles course – excellent dude.
Thanks Bro …
Brent
Brent, I noticed that the returner, despite knowing it was a 2nd serve and planning to move in, started with an eastern forehand grip and just inside the baseline.
Seems to me 1) he could have started say a foot behind the 1/2 way point between service and baseline for better balance maintenance but still get his forward movement and 2) could have started with a continental grip assuming he was going to block or hit a low slice crosscourt – thereby making his job simpler.
Of course, I don’t know the server’s history here or if the returner was reading the server, but, as a default I would have been trying to position myself to reduce my balance & reduce my approach shot movement challenge, and think of the grip work for setting up my partner as a low slice, drop shot, or last option an angled drive to the service box corner if the ball bounced as I like it (as an approach not a winner)…all of which can be done with the continental grip either side, though the eastern grips do assist the drives for me both sides.
Bill’s two-handed backhand doesn’t incorporate the grip with his lower hand (as you point out, an eastern forehand) the way I teach it.
Bill simply stays eastern forehand with his lower hand rather than what I think is better, a continental or an eastern backhand.
He can still play that backhand by blocking it, rolling it, and sliding it down low, but it’s tough to really drive it with that grip.
In this case, Bill has done all that he needs to do – get it safely crosscourt and down low at the server’s so that his partner Paul can then have something to work with.
If the server had been to Bill’s forehand, then he’s ready to drive a forehand.
I’ve played against Bill and Paul twice (and Bill and other partners a couple of other times), and the only way I’ve had any success against Bill when he’s returning is to play a high bouncing serve out wide and try to stretch out the two handed backhand.
By staying with his eastern forehand grip on his two handed backhand, it’s hardre for him to let go with the top hand and play a traditional one-handed slice.
It’s not an automatic as Bill can run around that backhand and drill his forehand, so I have to play a few topspin high bouncing serves down the “T” to keep him honest.
All that said, none of us have all of the tools to be able to account for each and every possibility out there, so in Bill’s case, he’s hedging his bets in trying to get set up for as many possibilities where he can be successful.
He’d sure like to get a forehand he can drive as you’re correctly pointed out by his ready position eastern forehand grip, but he’ll also be OK with playing that great medium pace backhand that sets up Paul perfectly …
Brent
I tried this with a series of rec players this morning and it worked pretty well:
RS doubles preparation talk:
1. I tell them I’m following the ball around the court…if the ball goes left I’m moving left…if the ball goes right I’m moving right, so you will know without looking where you can expect to find me and so you can move with me.
2. Most of the time I will try to set you up so you can get some opportunities at the net for put aways. I will do this mostly by hitting angled slices, drop shots, and some lobs.
RS doubles followups
* If I see that they are staying behind the service line in a defensive court position, I say they can stay in a defensive position if they want, but it will be a lot easier to take advantage of my setups if they start at least 1/3 the way in from the service line.
* If they don’t like to talk, I say that is ok, but it will be much harder for us to work together as a team because we won’t be able to run plays or be able to work together to exploit the weaknesses of our opponents.
* If you want to stay behind the baseline, you will make it very hard for me to be effective at the net because you won’t be able to hit very many setup shots for me. If you don’t me to help you when I’m at the net, that’s ok.
RS.
Sounds like you could use a same-minded doubles partner
B-
I seem to have found one Brent. Both of us have been playing on the same league combo 7.5 team. We are gonna get together and play tournament and/or WCRC league doubles in 2013. Looking over the 2013 calendar, it appears than the current economic situation has discouraged quite a few tournament sites from hosting USTA matches.
Yeah, it will be nice to play with a regular partner if it works out. It is really tough always having a new first time partner. Today, I had a new partner who was willing to work with me…so that was fun.
Something new happened. We decided to let him call the location of my first serves. I hit a very high percentage on target, say 80%, so that was pretty cool, including three great kick serves. Practice does seem to work…why most of my fellow players refuse to do anything but play will always be an amazing factoid of the rec players world.
As it happened, one of the players at my local court got moved up in his rating and as a result will stop playing in the USTA leagues. Doesn’t feel he will be competitive at the higher rating and doesn’t want to learn anything new. Par for the rec course. Can’t handle losing.
I try to find time to practice, but when it comes time to make a choice, I will play, but in a practice mode. By that I decide in advance what shots to work on and play accordingly. For example, since my backhand is better that my forehand, I may run around my backhand to hit a forehand. (yes, I know, a lot of players do that but not for that reason) Or I stay back, when ordinarily I will go to the net.
But I would more likely “game practice” when I was still playing singles, in doubles I didn’t want to annoy my partner.
So there are reasons why one can’t find enough practice time, so you take the chance at a game when possible!
Cheers
Warren
Warren, yes!!!! Exactly, except that I never try to find time to practice. I always try to practice as you describe above in my matches. I agree that it is harder to do in doubles, but still doable. It allows you to focus on the process and then the outcome takes care of itself. So much fun!